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I (Meinert) am banned due to a lot of topics regarding bad plays, bad behavoir, lack of communication, trying to control the game and forcing calls and last but not least doding my ban.
The question is if the statements above is justified and if so enough to make a ban.
It is very hard to judge if a player should be banned from an objektive stance. This is because we have rules on what you can do and what you can’t, but there are always greylines and cases, where breaking the rule is no problem. And example of this is the rule that states, that while you are on trial you have to take advice from more experienced players.
It sounds good in general, but sometimes the seemingly more experienced player might actually be less experienced. And if they tell you to go 2 raiders over 4 aqua on level 1, you actually have to do it to avoid trouble. This is a rare example, as noone would probably give that advice, but it gives the idea, that sometimes taking an advice is bad for your chance of winning the game.A more realistic example could be an old player telling the guy on trial to no mix engineer and aqua.
But if we continue with the first raider vs aqua example and say that the trial player refuses to take the advice on replacing his aqua with raiders. Then he starts arguing how aquas are better in pretty much all cases, and that the advice is very bad. Here he is actually breaking the rules and risk getting accused of not only bad play/not taking advice, but also to have a bad attitude and lack teamplaying. And he also gets accuased of trying to control the game, cause it kinda fits. He is now the guy that plays bad, doesn’t take advice, doesn’t listen, plays solo, wants to control, and doesn’t teamplay. If this happens in the next game aswell, a picture is starting to get painted. Even If he didn’t make any missplays, he is soon to get banned for it.
As a LTD player you would probably facepalm over the scenario playing out, because you know the trial player is right and you completely understand his reaction.
But lets take the other example that recently happened to me. I choose to go 2 engineer 1 aqua for level 1 instead of 4 aqua. trying to defend that is not too easy, cause the majority of players will disagree with it.
Even tho the 2 examples are identical one is likely to lead into a warning/ban while the other one will have no effect, because we take our own game knowledge into account when deciding if a player should get banned or not.
You can say the same thing about a call or king control or whatever you like.FYI: the game i start with 1 aqua 2 engineer, i end up with biggest value/inc, and is only mid on 16. I get to make every single call and secure us victory on 17. the flame on me stopped at around lvl 10, where my team saw i was indeed the biggest player in lobby. But had the game not played out, i could have probably been reported/banned for bad play on level 1 and all the things that follows with it.
From this we can conclude that all bans happen form a subjetive opinion and can therefore be unfair. If the reviewer thinks that the good play is bad, an unjustified ban can happen.
If you get an unjustified ban, the logic thing to do is try to explain why your play was good. But my previous experince tells me that trying to defend my actions and clarify why they are mostly not bad doesn’t get me anywhere. Here is an example of a conversation i had with an admin, i try to recreate as best as i can:
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me: Why do you want to ban me?
Admin: you have bad behavoir
me: how so? what’s an example of my bad behavior
admin: This replay you ping a players lane on level 1.
me: That was not hostile, i just ping because his build was interesting, i did not correct or say anything to him.
admin: well you also try to force calls and dont take advice from others.
me: i have never forced any calls only come with suggestions. and what advice should i have taken that i didnt?
admin: well you want to control game even tho you are trial, and you also want to claim king always.
me: i have never claimed king, and im obv trying to win games, but i never forced any calls, so what did i do wrong?
admin: if you can see a problem in your attitude, i cannot help you sry.
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Who’s wrong or right here doesn’t really matter, but it’s clear to see the admin has a problem with me, but doesn’t give me anything concrete things to fix. That’s why i gave up on trying to rationalize and instead went for dodging. I realize this is not the way to go, because it’s only a temporarely solution and it puts me in an even worse spot. All i can do is promise to not make it happen again, and try to appeal here instead.
The way that im hoping to get unbanned is to be looked at with fresh eyes. I created a new account with nickname “Arkantos” using my old friend’s Akitos name cause i was thinking it would give me some credibilty when playing the game. (Hope u don’t mind if u read this, Akitos <3)
How i wish to get unbanned:
I’m hoping to start over and get an admin look through my most recent games (those played on Arkantos acc). I believe if it’s a top player, that reviews the games, and they don’t look for reasons to get me banned, they will see me as a good player with good behavior that should not get banned. I have no link to the replays cause i don’t know where to find them, but you can pick any few of my replays to review. I think i played pretty good in almost all of them, and if you take a sample size of 5-10 it should be clear, how my attitude and playstyle is.
I can already now say i make a huge missplacement of my hydra in 1 of the games, nothing i can do but say sorry for that one. Maybe i made a few other mistakes i would agree with, but before you call it a missplay please check with the top players.Hope you will take it into concideration to give me a chance and a fresh start. I promise you will not regret it!
and sorry for the long post..Meinert
Hey Meinert,
i respect your ballsy post and i can understand that you feel dishonored and rejected a chance to play here so i support your appeal for sure. A story always has two sides and by smurfing you are not making the situations look better for you.
Having that said there are a few things that are unclear:
1: What where the specific problems FBG players have when playing with you?
2: Why do you want to control a game in an environment where teammates dont trust you?
3: Did your teammates understand what your specific job was during a game?Honestly, i am disappointed that people are not starting to know you as the guy you are.
You were one of the nicest guys in ENT 1200+ bot and i still dont understand why people dont think the same.As a mentor i would say: Maybe it is important to gain trust from players so that people dont have problems with you. If you fit in you can take control of games etcetera. Sometimes you have a team where you can be captain and sometimes you cant because of the many different players/captains in the league.
The rules are not black and white as you stated. You are never forced to do stuff in game because micromanaging is not allowed. If you want to play engineer start over agua, be my guest but why would you free leak 5 or overbuild 5 and slow down your push?If someone gives advice, you are not forced to follow it, but if you do the opposite and fail your team they can ofcourse ban request that one and it will be reviewed according to the rules. Personally i know you are very motivated to play on a high level and win games. But why not start trying to benefit the team most you can?
Good luck and i hope you get another chance to play.
Ps. The games with Arkantos always felt weird 😛Hey Monkey, thanks a lot for your post, it’s worth gold to me!!
To follow your post step by step i will reply to your 3 questions in order:
1: What where the specific problems FBG players have when playing with you?
This is a really valid question, cause i’ve been asking this a lot myself. I was told that i force calls and have attitude problems, even if i never forced a call. I’m guessing it comes from the fact that i rarely take advice on my lane and usually try to get a call through if i feel confident, it’s the best call.
Unfortunately i don’t know which reports got me banned and where to find them, and i probably don’t even have memory of the games anymore, cause they were played too long ago.
But i have rather fresh memory of the games i played on Arkantos acc, and they have a few examples that remind me of my previous reports.1 is the game where i start engi aq. Basically all 3 other teamplayers tells me to start 4 aqua, but i ignore the advice. 1 player cannot let it go and tells me multiple times how bad my build is. I don’t know if i got any reports from this, but i guess it’s situations like this that make some ppl dislike and report me. If you believe i am wrong on my build, please check replay, i think even if i didn’t have oblit i would still start engi, cause we went warriors. Im not a fan of discussing it further without any replay to talk from, but i’m open if you want to.
In another game my team turned against me when i tried to stay on our clog strategy, but they didnt want to clog anyway. About 20 sec later they all say “why didnt we clog ffs”. When i told them “that’s what i said”, i remember they said “why tf are you ledaing when u are on trial?”. Once again idk if i got reported for attitude problems on this specific one, but it’s a pretty good example of how i become unpopulair.
So i basically feel that mostly people report me for doing good plays/calls that they think are bad, or that they think i should have no way to know whether it’s good or bad.
That being said, i do have a game in mind, where i think reporting me is fair enough.
It’s a game where im going diciple start into hydra. I place my hydra behind the disc for reasons that i don’t want to get into details with unless i’m asked. But i realize shortly after that the placement was very bad, and i understand my team’s frustration.I think the problem is poeple don’t want a trial player to lead or ignore advices no matter their skill level. But i think it’s pretty interesting that the people who report me rarely has more than 1300 elo, while ppl with 2k+ will rarely touch my lane and give me “wp” after. (Wik and Elder knows)
Why do you want to control a game in an environment where teammates dont trust you?
The answer to this one is, that i wish to gain the trust, and i see the way to get it, is proving myself as a good player, by making my own good decicions. But if you take the question and replace “do you want” with “are you trying” i see what you mean, and you have a good point. I should probably play more games before i can assume people will trust my and see my opinion as valid. I also feel like i’ve somewhat had this is mind, but i often experince gaining trust for a moment with some players, but then forget than next game have different players involved, who does not trust me.
3: Did your teammates understand what your specific job was during a game?
This question i feel like you are asking directly into my skill level vs my teammates. It’s hard to answer overall, but i’d like to say mostly no. I only have one game in mind, where i can definitely say i feel like my team did not understand my role as holder.
The specific game we leak 50 creep to king on 1, and 18 more on level 3, meaning enemy team scout our king ups. From this point i say that we can’t play passive and we need to fullsend 7 with me as holder. My team complains about my lack of push and say we need to go king, cause they might have immo. I say if they have immo we alrdy lost, so don’t play around that. It is somewhat accepted, and luckily for us enemy team has tm, and we get a step back into the game. But we are still far behind on value and i see the only way to win is me staying low for 10 and 7/4 after that. My team complains about my lack of push, even tho i am only holder on 10 aswell. I stay 6/1 for 10 and hold as planned. each team has 1 heal left going into midgame.
At arena i am 2.4k value with pd and like 50 inc. I am easily the biggest mid on 15/17, so i tell my teammates they need to push and i hold. Our plan is to send 17 with me as holder, but unfortunately we get a dc and game never finishes. But judgning from our start, i think it was amazing we actually still had a shot of winning on 17 because of the calls “we” made.
Short story is that my role this game was definitely to hold and save us heals/being able to send and take heals, but my team didnt think so as they kept complaining about my lack of push.As for what you said about me known for being nicest guy on ENT, i’d like to agree with you :D. I usually try to talk to people as if we were talking face to face, so i would never get rude, unless someone is really rude to me. But i think part of the repuatation comes from the fact that i was never really contested on my builds or calls on ent. I played almost everyday so most people knew me and blindly trusted my calls. Therefore i had no real reson to get angry/rude. Here i am contested on almost every buld or call i make,. So because i get into more conflicts on fbg than on ent, it makes sense that i am not seen to be as nice as here as i was.
Hope these were somewhat the answers you were looking for and hope we get to play together again!
Thanks for your extensive answer and i hope the admins process it fast so we can play again. Carrying a game when being 6-1 at 10 sounds fun :D. We are just at start of new season so maybe the admins can be lenient towards you. Good luck!
Hello meinert. Im not gonna be there stating my opinion as an admin (cause i had no interactions with you and i will probably let this be covered by other admins that got involved) but ill do it as a player. I don’t remember running a lot of games with you but i do remember a usual taste i got from those games. Now im not gonna say in any of our games i saw a violation of rules cause then i would have taken action myself but i do remember something clearly. People know you were a good player back in ent bot and i do trust it. It seems you understand the fundamentals of the game and there is no doubt about it but the meta has swifted a lot. Your judgement on builds/calls etc could be correct back in ent bot but not that much here with the current map where sends,builds, units in general are different. If you ever got to adjust to the meta i could see a player having a lot of potencial but you simply refused to with any chance given. I ain’t gonna talk about a game specifically and you know that’s not the deal cause with any of your example i can give other examples stating the opposite so no reason to do that. You think you doing the right thing and this maybe have worked sometimes but it still could be done in a better way with the current meta. When you understand how the game changed from meta then you would simply realise your teamates points throughout most of the game and for that you would simply call things that are more fitting into the current state of game so people naturally will not find your “forcing calls” so much of a disaster. I have seen you call wyverns on 10,dinos (when no necessary income needed) etc. Wyverns and dinos might be a good send back in ent bot in some situations but here they are simply not. Idk what will happen in this ban appeal but if it is accepted i think the only thing you need to work in the end is adjusting to the meta…and ye that would be taugh even by players they might be lower level than you simply cause they know how game works. Reach the right understanding of meta and you can simply prove you are better from anyone if that’s your goal.
Sup h4ken, ty for the reply!
I completely understand your point, and i’ve heard a lot of people saying the same thing, while they have probably been right. Dinos and wyvern on 10 is definitely outdated, so if i’ve called that, it had clearly been a missplay. That being said, i have improved a lot since i came to fbg, which i believe is very visable in my latest games. Obviously these games represent my current skill level, which is why i think they matter more than my older replays. So yes i am actually saying that i have now adopted to the meta, and i think the best way to find that out for yourself is by watching my games played on Arkantos account. But if you are not gonna have influence on the result of this appeal, i understand if you are too lazy to do that :D. Then i just wanna say ty for your post!Im not good at giving feedbacks, but even when i played with your smurf where you did tk ship hydra game it was horrible and your whole playstyle was screaming a smurf, even as a trial you didnt impress the people, you are not as good as you think, with meinert you tried to force calls, and you play i guess like you used to play before , the meta now is different . maybe back then you were good but now its new meta and you arent good as you used to be i guess. So better let people call and dont blame them .
Dear Viruskiril
If you want to give good feedback, the best way to go is with examples and reasoning. Simply calling a build tk, does not give anyone a clue to why it is bad, and it doesn’t let the reader know whether you should be trusted or not.
The closest thing you have to an example is “hydra+ship game” and i haven’t even had this roll on my smurf acc, so idk where you got that from?
I could write many pages on why i think your calls to send 2 is bad in the games we had, but i will not, as this topic is not about you.
If we ever get in a game together again, i will respect you, so i hope the same from you.Here i got it from 😉
Attachments:
ok, don’t know why i don’t remember that game, did it end shortly?
anyway if you could tell me what i did wrong and why i would appreciate it. i might even agree with you 😉Not really interested into the justifications, since a lot of it comes from the wrong place of mind.You dont need to share moderators opinions, but you are mandatory to respect them.If something is completely unfair handled from your point of view, there are many mods in the team you can go to and speak about what can be done or get other explanation why you been handled in a certain way that you deem unfair.
This whole i have been banned unjustified, hence i had to take action and smurf in is not acceptable and i wont debate this or allow any justification for it, since there simply is none.You as members have your rights to file complaints and work with the modteam to clear a situation and solve problems. You decided to work against us and take the easy way out twice, willingly and completely aware you are breaking a very important rule.Its talking about spilled milk, im not interested to clear everything up that has happened in the past.Checked replays out of the feedback channel, seen dms from your interactions with moderators and Oversight agreed you behaved unvouchworthy. Also your mentor blatantly told me it was close to impossible to help you because you refuse to work with him constructive, simply defending your own view and not interested in any progress.
What i will do is consider the games you did under Arkantos account.The overall feedback is that you still show the same meta gaps as before, but youve been indeed behaving more team oriented this time. 2 games you fell back into your old patterns, but i can see a will of improvement there all in all.
I wanna give you some personal feedback from my point of view. Ive seen plenty of your games from the 1200 bot, from people that applied for lihl over the years and youve been randomly in those.Im well aware that you have a mind for the game, and youve been a skilled player in the past in the surrounding as you described.The problem is not your lack of skill as a player in general, your a proven veteran.You should not have problems skillwise to be vouched for fbg ltd.
I wanna point out your problem is your ego and how good you think you perform at this moment in time in our games, and your approach towards the community/moderators.We want people to succeed and offer a place to be enjoyable, for a mixed crowd of people with different backgrounds and experience in the game.
It simply depends if you can adapt or not.This idea of good players applaud me for my plays, weaker players have a problem with me wont help you at all. Majority of a league is always the middle tier of skill, hence thats the majority skillset youll have to be able to work with.
This is a teamgame, disregarding people based on their elo or skill and only rate them by what skill they bring to the game and put value on them and their opinions is a problem.
You win together and you loose together and thats a big part where i saw lack of insight.Also, this will simply make people hate you. Might be you have no problem with that personally, but it ofc affects team synergy. Most people prefeer to have a harmonic teamgame with middle tier over having a pissing contest of whos the best and what should be done or whos captain.And in my experience, the better team wins fairly often over the team that has the individually stronger, yet problematic players.
I could explain a lot more in detail, and will do if necessary but i guess you understand what i try to say already. You can only take responsibilities for yourself and your actions, the rest is simply not within your hands.
We had quite heavy discussions about this hence it took long time. The consens we came up with is this:
1.You will be given a new Mentor, which is also an admin on fbg ltd to learn to work with our staff and not against them and hell do his best to help you adapt to this community and how you can become a valiant part of it.
2.I will oversee your work with said Mentor and i expect compliance and a change in attitude and approach. You ask for a fresh start, i am willing to give it to you, but i expect you to not make me waste my time and generally try your best to make it work this time. Since we both didnt interact in the past, this is as fresh a view you can get.
3.The Ball is in your court. I dont expect you to be perfect or never screw up, but i demand your best effort to make this work this time. I dont like to waste time, especially since this is not normal oversight modwork. This is me giving a favor to you which you cant expect another time.Since this is your 2nd offense, we cannot let you go on free from the getgo, that wouldnt be fair. Minimum bantime is 3 Months,hence you will be given a new trial on 17th October.
Message H4ken if you are interested to observe games in the meantime to give you your candidate role back so you can observe in the meantime and get back into the community and interact with people.Ban reduced from 1 Year to 3 Months
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